ADHDifference

S2E28: ADHD Romantic Relationships & Healthy Conflict + guest Bryan Gastelle

• Julie Legg • Season 2 • Episode 28

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Julie Legg speaks with clinical psychologist and ADHD specialist Bryan Gastelle. With both professional expertise and lived experience of ADHD, Bryan unpacks how neurodivergence impacts romantic relationships, communication patterns, emotional regulation, and household dynamics.

This conversation explores what healthy conflict really looks like, how couples can better support one another without falling into burnout or resentment, and why therapy doesn’t have to be a “last resort.” Bryan also shares practical tools, including the 5% Rule, for navigating emotional overwhelm, executive dysfunction, and relationship strain.

Key Points from the Episode:

  • Why ADHD is often misunderstood, especially the inattentive type in adults
  • How neurodivergence shows up in communication and daily relationship dynamics
  • Common patterns when both partners have ADHD (and what to look out for)
  • How neurotypical partners can support without slipping into rescuing or parenting roles
  • What healthy conflict looks like and why “I” statements and validation matter
  • The Four Horsemen of relationship breakdown (from the Gottman Method)
  • Tips for suggesting therapy to a partner without triggering defensiveness
  • Why a therapist trained in ADHD makes all the difference
  • How to use the “5% Rule” to break down overwhelming tasks
  • Why couples therapy can be a tune-up, not just a last resort

Links:

LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryan-gastelle-719820a5/

WEBSITE: https://www.empowermytherapy.com/

INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/empowerpsychotherapyllc/

FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/EmpowerPsychotherapyllc



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ℹ️ DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for informational purposes only. The views expressed are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or ADHDifference. Read More

BRYAN: There's certain things that challenge folks with ADHD depending on the symptoms. One common one I like to list is like folding laundry or, you know, doing the dishes or something that's kind of routine, not terribly exciting. Those things, you know, because the ADHD brain is wired for interest, you know, we struggle a little bit with it. And so when both people have ADHD, sometimes that day-to-day stuff gets neglected and then that can create friction too.

JULIE: Welcome to Season 2 of ADHDifference. I'm your host Julie Legg, ADHD advocate, author of The Missing Piece, A Woman's Guide to Understanding, Diagnosing, and Living with ADHD, and an unapologetic doer of many things. This season, we're turning up the volume with a global lineup of brilliant guests bringing their lived experiences, insights, research, strategies, and resources. And of course, along with a healthy dose of humour and humility. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or just curious, there's something here for every curious brain. Let's dive in. Today I'm joined by Bryan Gastelle, a clinical psychologist and the founder of a neurodivergent affirming telly health practice based in Arizona. Bryan specializes in ADHD, couples therapy, and helping busy adults navigate anxiety, burnout, and relationship stress. He understands how ADHD and neurodivergence shape communication, emotional regulation, household dynamics, intimacy and conflict, and how relationships can thrive when both partners feel seen, supported, and understood. Today we'll be talking about how ADHD shows up in romantic relationships, what healthy conflict really looks like, and how partners can support each other without falling into rescuing or resentment. Welcome to the show, Bryan. Thank you. But before we dig into relationships, I'd love to start with your own connection to this work and what led you to specialize in ADHD, couples therapy, and neurodivergent friendly care. 

BRYAN: Of course, so really I've had an interest in psychology for pretty much as soon as I was introduced to it. So that was a big part of it. Another big part is my personal lived experience with ADHD. I've dealt with this symptoms since a young age. And so I do have a connection to it there. And I think between that and my love of helping people, I fell into the psychology field. And as I was going through, my grad school program, I did a rotation at the Penn Adult ADHD Research Center. And there I did some assessment with folks and I did some therapy for ADHD and I learned a lot about the tools and strategies to work through it. So really, that's what captivated me and I've been doing it ever since. 

JULIE: Having ADHD yourself, it really puts your own lived experience into the picture too when you're dealing with your clients, which is great. To set the scene, what do you think people getting wrong about adult ADHD right now? 

BRYAN: Sure. So, actually, one thing I see in my practice a lot is this misconception towards the hyperactive impulsive type of ADHD. And I think it comes from that stereotype of, you know, maybe in grade school we knew that kid, like the class clown, the one who's very vocal, very impulsive. And I think that's the stereotype for a lot of people and what ADHD looks like. And so I'll get clients that come in and they have maybe the inattentive type or maybe they've learned to, you know, cope with it. Hyperactive impulsive, you know, symptoms like you know, fidgeting or trouble sitting still or things like that as adults and they don't realize that they actually have it. So I'd say that's far and away the biggest misconception is that stereotype as being the only presentation of ADHD when it can take many forms. And the other thing about it is that even the symptoms within, you know, one type or another, somebody could be, you know, have a strong working memory, let's say, but really struggle with organization or, you know, maybe be a little bit less hyperactive but a little bit more impulsive. So, it's really, it's one of those things that it can vary quite a bit really. 

JULIE: Yes, absolutely. And after years of living with ADHD, majority of which say is undiagnosed, we learn coping mechanisms. And so a lot of our traits can be hidden or appear to be hidden and can come out during stressful moments when we no longer can mask and hide some of those traits. So we'll talk about some interesting things as we go along through the episode. ADHD doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the whole relationship. And from your clinical lens, how does ADHD or neurodivergence impact romantic relationships? 

BRYAN: So, there's a number of ways that that can come out and relationships, you know, by nature are very complicated. But I'll tell you some of the most common things I see. So when one partner has ADHD, one common thing I'll see is a misunderstanding between the ADHD partner and the neurotypical partner. And so maybe someone with ADHD, let's say it's, you know, inattentive type, they're going to, you know, maybe forget some things or be a little late to show up or something like that. You know, symptoms that are pretty much associated with it. And then the neurotypical partner, because those symptoms are things that neurotypical people do on occasion but much less, they start to internalize it and think like "Oh this person doesn't care about me," or you know "They're doing this on purpose," or "It's some kind of character flaw." And then that can create a lot of friction in a couple. And then the other thing that could happen when both parties have ADHD is more just there's certain things that challenge folks with ADHD depending on the symptoms. One common one I like to list is like folding laundry or, you know, doing the dishes or something that's kind of routine, not terribly exciting. Those things, you know, because the ADHD brain is wired for interest, you know, we struggle a little bit with it. And so when both people have ADHD, sometimes that that day-to-day stuff gets neglected and then that can create friction, too. 

JULIE: My husband has ADHD, as do I, and we only found this out in recent years, but it makes sense now. Some of our patterns or our impulsivity and sometimes it clashes. Because if we're both high energy we're you know, that's wonderful. But if we're both low energy it can be interesting definitely. And many listeners are in relationships where one partner has ADHD or anxiety or burnout or was quite nervous about starting therapy for the first time. How can partners better support someone they love without sort of slipping into parenting or rescuing or nagging type roles? 

BRYAN: I love that question. It's very important. So, you know, I see this a lot of times with the one partner having ADHD couples. So maybe your neurotypical partner is more efficient at you know, planning things or structuring things and just you know, a little bit less symptomatic and then the person with ADHD really struggles with those things. And so to compensate the neurotypical partner takes on all of these responsibilities. The problem is that you're doing two things really. One is enabling the person with ADHD not to cultivate those skills which can be a big problem for that person's self-esteem and also the relationship as a whole. And then I think the other thing is that it burns out the person who is neurotypical sometimes because they have to you know, basically lift for two people instead of one. And so I would say set boundaries. It's okay to be realistic and say like, "Okay, I'm a little bit better at this, so I'm going to take this thing on, but within reason." So, you have to know where the boundaries are and make sure that it's not all one way or all the other could be very exhausting. 

JULIE: Yeah. Being that everything in the relationship, doing everything, thinking for the other person, trying to assist. But as you said, enabling might not be so good for the growth of your partner or for yourself, depending who's sitting in that chair. Very interesting. In your work with couples, what does healthy conflict actually look like? 

BRYAN: So healthy conflict is a number of skills I think or a number of things need to happen for it to be in my opinion healthy. But I'll say the building blocks to it. And for those interested I would recommend looking a little bit more into the Gottman Method and the Gottman Research because I'm about to use that. So one thing that I like to do to build communication from the get-go is "I" statements. And I statements are a way of disarming a little bit when you walk into something that you know is going to create a little bit of friction. So, an example I like to use is coming home to dishes. So, let's say that somebody comes home to a sink full of dishes and they use probably a more common reaction which is I call "you" statement. So, "You never help around the house. I'm tired of coming home to dishes," something, you know, even. Yeah. But "You never help around the house," I guess, would be a true you statement. And of course, the person hearing that is not going to be very receptive to that. But if you flip it around and you say, "I feel," and put an emotion after it, like, "I feel really overwhelmed when I get home to these dishes. Do you think you can help me out?" The other person's probably going to react a lot better. And we're taking accountability for our side of it. So, it's not going to put the person on the defense. And then the other side of the communication I like to start out with is validation. And so, validation is basically sensing the person's emotion and saying, "I hear you. It's understandable. We don't have to agree. We don't have to," you know, acquiesce." But a validation for that I statement "I feel overwhelmed when I come home to a sink full of dishes might," be like "Yeah that does sound like it would be overwhelming period," right? And then if you want to throw in "How can I help?" or "What can we do?" then that part is extra but that's just the validation piece. "I agree..." and taking ownership. There's no blame. It's how I feel. 

JULIE: That's a great way because there's a few things when it comes to conflicts. We know that we can get quite fiery, you know, in our fight or flight or whatever it may be. There's avoidance. Things can get quite chaotic. We can just sort of blurt out without a filter and things can get quite challenging. So, great tips. Thank you very much. On the flip side of that, what are some maybe early warning signs that conflict is slipping into patterns that aren't useful or safe the relationship? 

BRYAN: So, I figured this would be a good opportunity to go over the Four Horsemen under Gottman Method. So, there's these four concepts. They're called the Four Horsemen, and they're things you really want to watch out for in any relationship. So the first is criticism. Then we have defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. So criticism is usually the first. It comes about when the communication, it starts to get a little shaky and somebody's needs aren't necessarily getting through. So somebody's trying to say, "Hey, I need this." The other person is maybe just not hearing it or not reacting. And so when someone's needs aren't being met, often times they'll start coming out in other ways, which is usually criticism. So when that criticism happens, what can happen as a result is the defensiveness. So if we're criticized enough, then, you know, we're going to start fighting back, right? And getting defensive. And so that can turn into a problem in and of itself is if one partner expects or even both partners expect a problem, you know, there will probably be a problem. And so that can be problematic too. Contempt is where I would start saying that you'd want to look at couples therapy. I think if there's contempt in a relationship, there's really time to see a professional. But that's a sarcasm, eye rolling, mockery, disgust, usually kind of a end result of a lot of criticism and defensiveness. And then stonewalling is the last one where it's basically just shutting down, going blank, not saying anything. And a lot of times people will do that if they're just they're emotionally dysregulated or overwhelmed. So maybe, you know, we're bringing up this long time sore spot or something and somebody just goes quiet. That would be an example of stonewalling. And I'd say if either stonewalling or contempt are happening in the relationship, it's probably a good time to seek some care and, you know, take care of the relationship. 

JULIE: On that, how would you go about suggesting to your partner that it's time for therapy? Because it's quite a touchy subject, isn't it? 

BRYAN: It is. It is. That's a good point. So to bring it up to the partner, I think it's we've got to be careful about the stigma. There's a lot of stigma around therapy. I've heard it all, you know, in my work. And, you know, one thing I've heard is that it means that the couple is struggling, right? Or you shouldn't have to get therapy. I've heard that or, you know, just I think it just carries a basic stigma to it. Anyway, like, "Oh, you know, you're getting therapy." So, people have their preconceptions about it, and I think it's important to understand your partner where they might come from ahead of time. And then, you know, bring it up in a gentle way, like, "Hey, you know," I use the sandwich technique. "There are things that are great about this relationship, but there are things that are not so great. "Like let's go in for you know, to work on those and frame it as like kind of a team effort would be the advice I would give to someone thinking about bringing that up to their partner. 

JULIE: I wonder too if a therapist almost becomes quite a safe space in a relationship that is prone to being volatile. Having that third person there to keep the calm, keep everything in order, I think would be quite a relief really for many people. Many adults with ADHD or anxiety feel nervous about going into the therapy because they think they might be misunderstood or judged or told they're too much, you know. So, what would you say to someone who's hesitant to take that first step? 

BRYAN: I would first say that I understand where you're coming from. It's scary to go in and share parts of ourselves that, you know, we're normally keeping hidden or maybe feel even a little bit embarrassed about and things like that. Really though, I would say good therapy is non-judgmental, curious, and validating. A therapist really should not be judging their client. They should definitely not make their client feel like they're too much. And so I think if either of those happening or if they feel like they're happening, it might be more of a issue of like does the therapist fit your personality rather than should you seek therapy at all. Really, yeah, therapist by training, we're really, really not supposed to be judgmental or you know, say things like that. So hopefully that's of some solace too. And I think the other thing I would say is that there's no commitment. When you take that first step and you go in for a session, that doesn't mean you have to do 12 sessions of therapy. If you don't like it, you can always stop and do something else. So I would say give it a try. It can only help. What can a couple expect if they come to you and say, "Look, we've got some issues." Do they need to tell you in advance what they're coming in for? Or and they walk in and... let's explore what a therapy session could look like. Largely depends on the therapist. Therapists have different styles. Personally with me, I will send a short questionnaire to folks to just answer some of the basics so they, you know, we feel like we're coming in a little bit prepared. But some therapists will just, you know, they'll just start. And so it does really just depend on the therapist. The process is unique each time. If there's a certain type of couples therapy, you know, you can expect certain things. So there's Gottman Method, there's EFT, you know, there's a few others, but really it depends on the type of therapy and the therapists themselves. 

JULIE: All the way links to how to get in touch with you will be in the show notes. So if anyone's interested to check you out and to see what else you can help with, that will all be in the show notes. And you specialize in helping busy adults manage anxiety and burnout and relationships. What's a practical evidence-based tool that you teach clients that listeners could start using today? 

BRYAN: So, one of my favourite techniques to teach people is called the 5% rule. Because whether we're burned out, depressed, anxious, in some kind of relationship strain, there's usually some kind of goal that feels intimidating to reach, right? Because we wouldn't stay stuck if we if we didn't have to. And so, usually that's the case. And so what the 5% rule is where you take the full goal and then you say what's 5% of that and I'm going to set my goal to do that today right now. And so whether that's you know, taking that exercise class or applying for that different job or asking your boss for that raise, just ask yourself, what's 5% of that? So I'll give examples for those. Shop for exercise classes. Write down three URLs or copy paste three URLs. Save them for later. Browse the job search platform and save three jobs. Picture asking your boss for that raise. Then once you're done with that 5%, set a goal and a reminder a couple days out to follow up. 

JULIE: Ah, so it's approaching things in small in small chunks without being overwhelmed by something that could appear to be too big for us too. 

BRYAN: Exactly. Yeah. And I would say like it's also really beneficial for folks with ADHD because we're big picture thinkers, right? So we see a goal and we think about the entire goal. So if somebody says, you know, oh, I need to find a new job, that's a big goal by itself, you know. But if we say, oh, I've got to research it for, you know, 15 minutes, favourite three jobs, send my application a couple days later, it seems a lot more doable. And so make making sure we break those tasks down. 

JULIE: Couples navigating ADHD and perhaps mismatch communication styles. What message would you most want to leave them with today? 

BRYAN: I would say this that couples therapy doesn't just have to be like I'm going to use a metaphor here like a full engine repair type of thing, right? So if we come in it sometimes it can be just a tune-up. So if there's like flare-ups and occasional miscommunications, it is still a good time to get couples therapy. It just means that the therapy will be probably resolved a little bit quicker, and also I think you'll be happy you did it down the road. So really my message would just be come into therapy. It doesn't have to be intensive. It doesn't have to be when the relationship is in jeopardy. In fact, it's probably better to just be a little pre-emptive about it. And like I said, there's no commitment. So, you know, if you don't like it, you can always stop. 

JULIE: That's great. Thank you. I love that. Don't wait till it's broken. That's so much harder to fix. But yeah, the tune-up. Love it. 

BRYAN: I would say that one other thing that often gets missed is the value of specialized therapy for ADHD. So really like, you know, in that rotation with at Penn, I learned a lot of tools that utilize the strengths of ADHD and step around some of the weaknesses. And so I'd encourage anybody who's dealing with ADHD and struggling with the symptoms to find someone that, you know, specializes in ADHD treatment and set up a couple of appointments with them and just talk about some skills you can use. The medication is always, you know, it is considered the first line and it is important, but the therapy can really be quite a game changer too. 

JULIE: For neurotypical people, I imagine it would be right, this can be very helpful. You might want to do X, Y, and Z. But that same advice isn't always going to sit with an ADHD person just because those challenges that you said come to light. We might know that doing the dishes would be very a positive thing for a relationship and having a tidy house would bring harmony to a relationship, but knowing it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to happen as you said without interest-based prioritizing that might be shuffled down the list a little. So having a therapist that understands ADHD and knows some of the challenges and as you said some of the walk-arounds and to bring our strengths out to help us deal with more challenging traits. Sounds perfect. Thank you. Great advice. What's lighting your fire at the moment in the work that you're doing? Is there is there anything that's rising above giving you lots of energy or what you're really excited about in the work that you're doing? Maybe a breakthrough or a project that you're working on? 

BRYAN: Well, I would say there's a lot of projects in the works right now. I run a company called Empower Psychotherapy. So, there's quite a bit going on. It keeps me really busy. One of the things we're working on is, just offering content to folks that, you know, outside of therapy to follow up on the therapy. So, we're building a part of our web page out that is going to have some tips that are just, you know, if you want to sign up for the website, but maybe you're just not sure if you want therapy yet. Or maybe it's just one of those things where you know, maybe we don't have state coverage yet for you. You can get those tools and you know, see what you can do with them. Oh, wonderful. That's probably one of... yeah. 

JULIE: And is that available now or you're working on it? [Very soon. Yeah, I'll have it in coming weeks.] Brilliant. Excellent. Well, we'll make sure we'll put that link in as well. Wonderful. Well, you've been very helpful. Thank you so much. I really appreciated your time today. And there's a few tips and tricks there I think for our listeners that might be curious on how that they can improve their relationship with ADHD or their ADHD partner. So you've been very helpful and I appreciate your time. Thank you. 

BRYAN: So happy to help. Thanks for having me today.

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Julie Legg

Host
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Jel Legg

Co-host
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Bryan Gastelle

Guest