ADHDifference

S2E35: Pattern Spotters With a Justice Radar (ADHD Edition) + guest Dr Eugene Manley

• Julie Legg • Season 2 • Episode 35

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0:00 | 31:01

Julie Legg sits down with Dr. Eugene Manley, a bioengineer-turned-cancer scientist, nonprofit founder, and passionate advocate for equity in science and healthcare. Diagnosed with ADHD during graduate school, Eugene shares how his neurodivergent wiring shaped his path from misunderstood childhood behaviours and micromanagement clashes to his deep sense of justice, pattern recognition, and innovation.

Eugene opens up about navigating academia, launching a nonprofit to address health disparities, and leading through empathy rather than conformity. This conversation is packed with powerful reflections on how ADHD can be a strength — especially when harnessed with awareness, strategy, and aligned values.

Key Points in the Episode:

  • The overlooked signs of ADHD growing up, and what finally led to diagnosis in grad school
  • How neurodivergence influences innovation, empathy, and the fight against injustice
  • Why ADHDers often struggle in hierarchical workplaces — and thrive with autonomy
  • Micromanagement vs. motivation: how trust and freedom foster better work
  • What inspired the launch of the STEM & Cancer Health Equity Foundation
  • The hidden barriers underserved communities face in healthcare settings
  • Practical ADHD strategies that helped Eugene manage time, focus, and burnout
  • Viewing ADHD through a strengths lens: pattern recognition, hyperfocus, and drive
  • Advice for late-diagnosed adults navigating regret, relationships, and self-trust

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ℹ️ DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for informational purposes only. The views expressed are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or ADHDifference. Read More

EUGENE: You just see the world in a different lens. And so appreciate that you see things differently than others. Understand you probably have great pattern recognition. You just don't recognize them patterns that everyone else does. Realize often you are great innovators, great leaders, great speakers. You know when you are focused on something, you are unstoppable. And so channel that into what you do and you will be much better off.

JULIE: Welcome to Season 2 of ADHDifference. I'm your host Julie Legg, ADHD advocate, author of The Missing Piece (a woman's guide to understanding, diagnosing, and living with ADHD), and an unapologetic doer of many things. This season, we're turning up the volume with a global lineup of brilliant guests bringing their lived experiences, insights, research, strategies, and resources. And of course, along with a healthy dose of humor and humility. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or just curious, there's something here for every curious brain. Let's dive in. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Eugene Manley, a bio-med engineer turned cancer scientist and nonprofit founder. Eugene was diagnosed with ADHD during graduate school after a lifetime of missing unspoken social rules. responding to cues differently than people expected and noticing patterns and details that felt obvious to him but invisible to others. Like many late diagnosed adults, he learned to push through without consistent support, often feeling misunderstood in both personal relationships and professional spaces. He speaks about the upsides of ADHD, the pattern recognition, creativity, and deep sensitivity to injustice. Welcome to the show, Eugene. Thank you so much for having me on here. [It's a pleasure to be here.] That's wonderful. Diving straight into the questions. You were diagnosed with ADHD as an adult during grad school after years of trying to navigate education, work, and relationships without having a language for what was going on. Can you take us back please to that period and share what life looked like for you before your diagnosis? 

EUGENE: Well, you know, for me, I was always hyper, always the outlier. Some people said I was weird and socially awkward. And, and I realized at an early age, I just never responded or acted to things the same way everybody else did. And then I said, I can't do this. This, and it's not that everyone else was wrong, I just felt like it was performance. I'm not going to sit at this event and cry because everyone else is doing. I'm not going to clap at something because everyone else is doing it. Has to be something that I genuinely feel. But that is hard when you go through systems that don't really give you the room to let your personality or eccentricities show through because you know most of life it's, you know, you go to school. You must be in this box. You must behave this way. You must act this way. Then you go to college... you can't be too much of an outlier and you have to fit in the box. Then you go into corporate world and nonprofit and you still have to fit in the box with which they can contain and understand. But what that does is it really, really stifles you. I was in a weird position that I was just so dogged. I was so doggedly determined and stubborn that somehow I made it work. And then when I got diagnosed in grad school, I said, "Oh, this makes so much sense." It wasn't that I was bad. It was just like I didn't respond to stuff. I just didn't cry. I didn't care. Not that I didn't care, just I could have a conversation, but it's not going to be one conversation. It's likely going to be six or seven in my head and then, you know, if you say something and then if I feel I'm going to forget, I have to say it right away, which some people assume is rude. It's like, no, if I don't say it, I'm going to forget about it. So it helped concept, you know, conceptualize things a little more. And so, I'm a little more mindful. I'm still going to be me, but at least I try to do different coping mechanisms and try to think about the audience. 

JULIE: So, you've spoken about these missing, these unspoken social rules and responding to cues differently and noticing details that felt obvious to you but maybe invisible to others. So, looking back now through your ADHD lens, it all makes sense now? As you said, it's all falling into place as it should be? 

EUGENE: It made me a better understander and a better empathizer. And what some people don't realize is ADHD people tend to really be strong on not so much order, but what's right and wrong. And so, just don't say something and then change your mind or just whatever. You just be consistent. And we're really... we really viscerally respond to just injustice and doing people wrong and I don't think people understand how that just is like cutting to us and we have to fix stuff. So I've always been the one that will talk to people in groups or the person that's outside of group that feels isolated, has just I've seen it and sensed it and I just feel I have to do it. So it's formed sort of how I mentor people, how I think about other neurodivergent people. I just say okay they're you know, they're just wired differently but that does not bother me. I don't assume that they must speak. Nope. Like let them be and just, you know, let people live. And then that is a hard lesson for others to learn. 

JULIE: Absolutely. And we'll go into more of this justice sensitivity shortly. I wanted to ask you about micromanagement though and you've described it as being put in the... in a box has always been a struggle for you. So specifically on micromanagement, how has ADHD shaped your experience in academic and professional settings that relied so heavily on this hierarchy or conformity or unspoken expectations? 

EUGENE: Micromanagement and ADHD do not mix well at all. You want to viscerally upset an ADHD person, you start micromanaging. And it's on stuff and micromanage on stuff that we already know and already do well. And so either we'll tolerate it or we'll end up leaving a job because it's just not worth the hassles, like I already know this in this space. Don't tell me how to do what I already know. If you're going to educate me, then give me something I don't know how to do. But oh my god, micromanagement is the worst. It's like, oh, go do your stuff, do great, and then you do your stuff. And it's, but we need to change this and change this and change this. And you're just like, you give me my guard rails at the beginning and then just get out my way and I will give you what you need. Just give me the guard, you know, give me the guides, the guard rails, the time limit, and then let me be. But do not keep then interjecting because then it is just it messes up a flow because you know, sometimes we have this... how to describe it? It's hard to sometimes get started on something, task paralysis, but then when we get started then we're there but then don't intersect that process. 

JULIE: Exactly. Oh gosh. I recall in a contract role, my manager checking my emails before I sent them. I'm a grownup. You've given me a job to do. Don't check the one that did. 

EUGENE: That one that checked my emails, one that wanted to give me critiques on my video calls. And I'm like, I have a different background in training. I understand science and biology and I work with a lot of researchers. I know how to talk to scientists. I don't need to be taught how to speak in this capacity. Oh yeah, that was...yeah, that was rather insulting. It's great to be able to chat about this because everything you're saying I'm nodding and going, "Yes, I've been there. Completely experienced that." So, thank you. How did being diagnosed as a young adult shift the way you interpreted feedback or conflict or those moments that you felt a bit out of step with other people? I think I may have first been diagnosed early in grad school or late in grad school. In essence, two degrees struggled through undergrad because I had great grades in high school and then I got to college and you know, and my school was really, really hard. And I was over-studying, over-stressing and I still wasn't getting high grades and I'm like am I an epic failure? And then it finally I think near the last year that you know, just you have to learn to let this pressure of ultimate success go and just do what you know and get what you get and keep it moving. And that was one of the hardest things to learn because sometimes we as ADHD people we're so hyperfocused and determined and dog... as I said just let it go because the stress is not worth it. And then I got diagnosed in grad school. No, it wasn't my... it was my PhD , but at the time I was diagnosed, I still couldn't afford the medications. So, I had to wait till near the end of the PhD to finally go on med. I've been going on and off just because it just wasn't affordable. And, you know, we didn't have the right medication because, you know, just because you have ADHD, you have to figure out what works for you. And then do you do extended release? And so, I got diagnosed late in grad school and that made a difference because I was in a very exacting PhD lab and you really needed to have strong hyperfocus and my experiments were long and exhausting and I could do them, but I would always just go crazy having to sit in the tissue culture lab for five, six, seven hours. I remember one summer I didn't have a summer because I was doing drug preparations or the saline treatments or dosing animals. Basically, I had to prepare stuff every day straight for 90 days. That was a very unhappy time. I'm just saying that I got the data, but I was... you were to talk about someone being cranky. That was, I was like a little bit too much. But the diagnosis did help conceptualize some things. And so it got better. At least I know how I am. So I don't feel like I'm... I don't feel I still am an outsider, but I don't feel like I have to, you know, apologize for being me. Either you accept me for who I am or you just keep it moving. You just have to eventually you find a crew of people that can understand and work with you and that's sort of who becomes your, you know, your lifelong network. 

JULIE: One thing that stood out about how your diagnosis changed some views and it gave you a deeper respect for difference you had said and making you slower to judge others and maybe more curious about what's happening underneath someone else's behaviour. How has that awareness changed the way you lead or show up for other people? 

EUGENE: This is interesting. You know, a lot of what I've done is I've seen what happens when you have bad leadership. And so you see when people say one thing and do another or you see when people play favourites. Or you see it in hospital settings where you know, there's a guideline they're supposed to follow but then they assume because you... they think you're poor and uneducated that they can misrepresent things and you know, and that's just viscerally wrong. And I read medical records which a lot of patients don't do. So and then you have mentors that would say they do stuff and then they don't write your letters of recommendation. You've had mentors that you know, they look great on paper and then you know, you say you're leaving or you're getting a job then they won't write a letter of recommendation. Or you don't know how they're going to respond because sometimes their ego is more important than your success. And so it really taught me a lot about trying to understand people, what they need and how to put them in positions to soar and excel. Like I would rather have someone I've trained well leave to go grow in another role than to just do everything to keep them solely doing great work for me. Like that doesn't help my... I see it as help people get where they want and need to be and don't hinder that. 

JULIE: Oh that's great. More leaders should be listening to you Eugene. That's great. Now, this is where I want to talk about your sensitivity to injustice because do you see a connection between your ADHD and your sensitivity to injustice and your drive to advocate for people who aren't in the room? And I want to say including founding this STEM and cancer health equity foundation. 

EUGENE: Yes, there's a strong link between injustice and the non-profit that was initially was not my goal to launch the STEM and cancer health equity foundation, but you know, I grew up inner city Detroit, dirt, poor, first-gen, and just saw a lot of what my mother dealt with navigating healthcare and often how doctors or nurses or hospital staff would just disregard her, be disrespectful, be really mean at night. Or they would give her, you know, the readout from a report and then it would say, "Oh, the instructions are on page five." But if you are not versed in medical terminology, you're not going to get to page five because the first four is my chart jargon. And it will be immensely frustrating for her and then I would have to try to translate and I did not live in Detroit. And so it made me appreciate that, you know, we need to have more health literacy, make more providers aware that just because you put it in a electronic document in a print out, if you can't take the time to explain it to the person that's supposed to absorb this, then why would you think they would do what you say? And then when they don't do it because they don't understand or they're afraid to ask, then you label them as non-compliant, but you've not actually asked the right questions like how can they implement this? How can they get someone to work with them on this? What does this mean? You know, so there there's just a lot of steps there. And then my own hospitalization last year when I had my own surgery where I have a biomechanics background. I know how to read medical records and the surgeon and I had a comprehensive plan in place. However, the hospital staff decided that because I launched a non-profit that wasn't the... so but I launched a non-profit so I'm on Medicaid because I just have low income. They decided, oh, he's on Medicaid. I'm poor so we're just going to, you know, basically misrepresent everything in my medical records. So, yep. They said I had no pain. They said I could ambulate. They said I had a caregiver, which are none of these things are true. They asked about my ability to pay and I just said, "You've got to be kidding me." And it took me about three and a half weeks later to find I mean, I was still on heavy painkillers because I was non-weight bearing for 6 weeks. Took about three and a half weeks to finally read the medical records to see what how much they had misrepresented. But because of that, that prevented me from getting the skilled nursing that I needed so I wouldn't be home alone. So it really reinforced that you know what people say and what they chart also impacts care at all. So no matter, do not listen anyone and said "We do this. Read your medical records." Have a proxy that can read them in real time and but it reinforced why I do the work that I do. I saw what my mom faced. I see a lot of what black and Hispanic and other under-served patients face navigating lung cancer and my training is in lung cancer and they don't have resources. So I said, "What can we do to try to either remove the barriers or educate and empower them?" So that's in essence sort of how I created the STEM and Cancer Health Equity Foundation. 

JULIE: Wow. What a journey you've been on. And to be right there and experience it, not just theoretically, but to be there on that. So you are a cancer scientist, nonprofit founder, and a leader working within science and equity and advocacy. What's exciting you the most about the work you're doing right now? 

EUGENE: One of the most exciting things I do is we run this annual lung cancer interventions or health equity summit. And I really love it because it's an event that brings together patients, caregivers, and survivors to learn more about the disease, learn how to advocate, and to bring them in contact with people that either may be local or further nationally that are actually either vested in working with under-served populations or treating under-served populations because these populations often don't get information and resources. And then on the other side, we bring in the researchers, clinicians, payers, hospital systems, etc. to not just talk about the problems under-served communities face because we do that ad nauseam, but what programs or solutions are they creating that are removing barriers and removing disparities and reducing inequities and by bringing all these people in the same space. Then you start having this synergism and you break down those walls of communication. So then the... "Oh I was at this conference. I met this doctor in your state. You can use that. Maybe talk to that doctor." And so now we're trying to bypass some of that information blocking that under-served patients don't have. And so that is what I'm really, really proud about because I started that conference from scratch and over 3 years it's grown to about 110 people. We had about probably now about 60 organizations present and we're up to probably about 20 or so percent 25% patient participation and so it's just, you know, it's great to see where it's going. And just the, you know, the best thing is when a patient comes up to you at the end of the conference and says "Oh my god. I've never seen this many people that look like me in a space and I felt seen and heard and I could speak my truth." And that's sort of why you do this kind of work. 

JULIE: Amazing. Well done. Exciting. And when's that conference coming up? 

EUGENE: We just had the third one in October of last year. So, I'm working on writing the report now. I should probably get that done in the next week. But we'll probably have the fourth one in October. It will be in Philadelphia. We know it's going to be in Philadelphia. So we're working on setting up that program and it's going to be focused on bio-markers, diagnostics, and imaging. So that's what we know it's going to be focused on. 

JULIE: Fabulous. Wonderful. Back to the workplace. ADHDs are often misunderstood in the workplace and many end up creating their own paths as business owners or founders. Why do you think ADHD brains can struggle in traditional structures but thrive when we're, when they're given this autonomy and purpose? 

EUGENE: Well, you know, I think this is sort of the key thing for ADHD. We our brain is wired so differently. You know, you have people on the bell curve and then, you know, we're not so much the 1%, but we're probably the 5%. Not so much as far as per se after two, but as 5% is how our brain is wired. So we just never fit and you can only do ABCD and we typically see, at least me as an intern, we see the whole picture first and only when you see the whole picture we think big then you can funnel down. But so many people get scared of the big piece first. I said "If we don't start here and see then we can't really follow because we're only doing a piece but if we have to understand the whole picture..." and so that is what a lot of people are afraid of and we always think it's not so much go big or go home but like if you don't go big then you're not really innovating and then you're afraid of failure. And ADHD people aren't necessarily afraid of failure. We are like "Okay if it works, great. If it doesn't, we will keep moving. And that's what a lot of organizations tend to fear. Fear the unknown or tend to fear, putting emphasis on stuff and you know, and you know they have a process but the process is always usually linear and it never works when you're trying to do broader systems change. It just never does. So in essence if you're in a place and you're ADHD, and depending on the type of ADHD, you typically feel hamstrung hampered like your intellectual juices aren't flowing or allowed to flow. So eventually many of us get frustrated or tired and then we ended up launching our own org because then we sort of know the problem we're trying to address and how to do it. And then we just try to put those pieces in place to help amplify it. So that's in essence what happens.

JULIE: And we're so good at that, aren't we? We have a goal and, with our dogged determination and hyperfocus and this insane drive that we have, we can get so much done when it's interest based. 

EUGENE: And it has to be something you are interested in. That's the thing. Give us a task that is boring and menial and it yeah, that won't... that will not move. It just is not going to move. 

JULIE: I understand completely. You've mentioned that you've developed some practical strategies that have helped you get through grad school and leadership without burning out. So, I was wondering if you could share one or two tools or shifts that genuinely made a difference for you. 

EUGENE: One thing I as odd as this sounds growing up, you know, I always saw people that had planners. I could never ever use a written planner because that means I would have to keep it on me at all times. I just never could use it. Only maybe in the last maybe 10 years or so with Outlook getting a little better. The electronic calendar is my friend. Like I kid you not. Like if it is on my calendar, I will see it. I'm likely to look at it. Okay, I know this is here. That is the only thing that keeps me on task is if you... if it's not on a calendar, it doesn't exist. I tell people if you make a meeting, do not make a meeting and send me an email with the meeting link. Like no, that means it does not exist. If it is not actually scheduled through the calendar and I don't see it on my calendar, it does not exist. It is that has made a big difference in sort of time management. The other thing I have learned and I don't even know what to describe to is that, when I find I do a lot of my great thinking and ideation when I'm walking. And so I'm walking and talking or if I'm on the phone and I'm walking and talking, I get all these great ideas and the thing you should be doing is recording yourself. But you never know when you're going to have a great idea. But if you can start doing that, it also helps. But also find out what helps you stay calm in the noise. A lot of times for me, I can sit in a loud coffee shop because I just need some background noise or I can sit with techno in my headphones and do work because it's for me, it's my version of white noise. It's like, okay, I just have some. I don't need to listen to it. I just need something there. So, so those are three things that you can do, but it has to depend on how you understand your ADHD and what sort of helps you relax, focus or ideate or relax, which is the hardest thing because we don't have off switch. 

JULIE: That's the problem indeed. Yes, that off switch. Where is it, Eugene? Where is it? It's hidden somewhere. 

EUGENE: I'm sure you find it when you're so exhausted, then you crash. You're like, "Well, I guess it's time for me to get some sleep." 

JULIE: That's just... that's the circuit breaker, isn't it? I love that you strongly align with the difference, not the disorder lens. And for someone listening who's still viewing their ADHD primarily as a deficit, what would you like them to understand about the strengths that often go unnamed? 

EUGENE: I want them to understand one, you are not a bad person. You're not evil. You're not different. Well, you are, but you just see the world in a different lens. And so, appreciate that you see things differently than others. Understand you probably have great pattern recognition. You just don't recognize them patterns that everyone else does. Realize often you are great innovators, great leaders, great speakers. You know when you are focused on something you are unstoppable and so channel that into what you do and you will be much better off. 

JULIE: And I love the pattern recognition that you mentioned too because that's everywhere in problem solving. It's picking up on other cues that others don't see. We we're pretty good at that. 

EUGENE: Yes. And it could be and you don't know what pattern it is. Like you could go into a office every day and you don't know but you know something was moved. And it could be that a lamp was moved or a book was moved off the space and no one else notices it. And then they're like, what I was like "But the book was there!" And they were like "What are you talking... it's the weirdest thing." And you just never know what your pattern or what you will fixate on, or in essence not fixate because it's just you know, the brain overlays and you just, okay, something's off, something's gone. But it also kind of be good. It kind of helps at reading people. You sort of understand people, how they operate, how they behave, and then you sort of learn when people are being outliers and sometimes not good outliers, but you "Okay, I should stay away from this person." But so yeah, you just have to figure out what patterns you recognize and then be good and in... and what's the word I want to say? Enhance is not the word. But I want to say amplify what you're great at and do that well, you know, and that's how you also get around a deficit mindset, you know. I think there was a leadership course I did and we did this Clifton Strengths, you know, book and you know, you get your five leadership traits and it'll show you your personality type. But the whole idea with Clifton Strengths is focus on the things you are good at and do those well and don't get so worried focus on things that are your weaknesses. Like do what you do well. 

JULIE: Absolutely. And there are others that can do the things or help us with the things we don't do so well. But rather than stress and struggle and maybe be non-productive in those weaker areas, best to charge on ahead with what we're brilliant at. Eugene, for adults who are discovering the ADHD later in life, especially maybe those who spent years feeling misunderstood or out of place, what message would you most want to leave them with? 

EUGNE: I would say, you know, especially when you get diagnosed older, I mean, older than when I got diagnosed in grad school, just realize that if you've had ruined relationships because of your ADHD, it's not that you were wrong or bad. It's just your brain was wired and a lot of people don't know how to deal with that. And just once you get your diagnosis, determine if you can still function without medication. And if you need medication, then try to find a medication that works. Be aware you may have to try three, four, five or six medications. If you think it will help, but just know, yeah, you may have a lot of damaged relationships and it was not inherently your fault. And just be able to accept that and be able to move forward with that. 

JULIE: Thank you. And moving forward is the most important thing, isn't it, too? Because we can't undo the past, especially a misunderstood past. Yes. But we can, with more grace and more knowledge, improve our future path. Yes. Indeed. Indeed. Thank you so much for your time today, Eugene. You've been a joy to chat with and I really appreciate it. And wish you all the very, very best with your work in your STEM and cancer equity foundation. 

EUGENE: Yeah, thank you so much. It was an honor to be here and if people, you know, have any questions, they can just sort of find me on LinkedIn. And I'm working on a sort of patient advocate toolkit. So if they just say they were on the show, we'll be able to get them to one pager to just sort of help them navigate things in medical care. It's not a complete thing, but it's just a one pager that might help you if you go in, you know, doctor settings and ask questions about and it could apply to ADHD like, you know, what does this mean? What does this test result mean? How do I get follow-up? So, we have that for them. 

JULIE: Thank you so much. And those links will be in the show notes for our listeners. Just scroll down to the show notes and those links will be there. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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Julie Legg

Host
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Jel Legg

Co-host
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Dr Eugene Manley

Guest