S2E29: ADHD, Parenting & Abusive Relationships + guest Julie Barth

Julie Legg speaks with writer, advocate, mother of six, and trauma survivor Julie Barth, whose powerful story of caregiving, survival, and personal evolution is nothing short of extraordinary. Julie opens up about life before and after her ADHD diagnosis, the generational ripple effects of misunderstood neurodivergence, and rebuilding her life after emotional and financial abuse.

This episode explores the complexity of undiagnosed ADHD in women, the strength in vulnerability, why “bouncing forward” not just bouncing back is the real definition of resilience, and the Colin James Barth Outreach she has founded to help others.

Key Points from the Episode

• How Julie's undiagnosed ADHD showed up in her life, especially during caregiving and trauma
• Misunderstood signs of ADHD: Overthinking, anxiety, and people-pleasing
• Realising her son’s ADHD only after understanding her own
• The emotional impact of not validating her child’s needs earlier
• Generational beliefs about labels, fitting in, and parenting through shame
• Navigating grief, abuse, and ADHD overwhelm as a neurodivergent woman
• Why picking yourself (not pleasing others) is the first step to freedom
• What resilience truly means after hardship: “bouncing forward” not back
• Her charity’s work supporting women in crisis with no clear roadmap
• Strategies for emotional steadiness when ADHD and life feel overwhelming

Links

WEBSITE: https://www.juliebarthauthor.com/

INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/julie_barth_author/

LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliebarthauthor/

OUTREACH: https://www.juliebarthauthor.com/cjb-outreach

Thanks for listening.

📌 Don’t forget to subscribe for more tools for beautifully different brains.

🌐 WEBSITE: ADHDifference.nz

📷 INSTAGRAM: ADHDifference_podcast

📖 BOOK: The Missing Piece: A Woman's Guide to Understanding, Diagnosing and Living with ADHD

ℹ️ DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for informational purposes only. The views expressed are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or ADHDifference. Read More

Chapters

• 0:01 Introducing Julie Barth
• 2:50 Living through caregiving and trauma without an ADHD diagnosis
• 4:35 Recognising her son’s ADHD and revisiting her parenting
• 8:48 Breaking down stigma and fear around diagnosis and labels
• 12:28 Leaving an abusive relationship with ADHD: the unique challenges
• 15:09 What resilience really looks like after loss and hardship
• 19:46 Overthinking and emotional overwhelm
• 21:58 The founding of Colin James Barth Outreach and helping other women
• 28:24 Strategies for staying grounded and emotionally steady
• 30:11 Final message for women navigating hidden struggles

Transcript

JULIE B: You know, I recognize that I'm not where I used to be, but I'm on like solid ground now, you know. And it takes a while for you to look around and say like I didn't bounce back, I bounced forward. And I'm no longer in a space where I'm trying to get to a better place. I'm in a better place and I will never be in that situation again because I know better. I know I deserve better. And I think that's part of resilience is knowing your worth and being a better version of yourself rather than trying to get back to whoever you think you lost in it.

JULIE L: Welcome to Season 2 of ADHDifference. I'm your host Julie Legg, ADHD advocate, author of The Missing Piece, A Woman's Guide to Understanding, Diagnosing, and Living with ADHD, and an unapologetic doer of many things. This season, we're turning up the volume with a global lineup of brilliant guests bringing their lived experiences, insights, research, strategies, and resources. And of course, along with a healthy dose of humour and humility. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or just curious, there's something here for every curious brain. Let's dive in. Today I'm joined by Julie Barth, a writer, mother of six, trauma survivor, and founder of the Colin James Barth outreach, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting women led households in times of crisis. Julie's memoir, Notes from a Blackberry, chronicles her journey as a special needs parent while caring for her first husband through cancer and the extraordinary emotional load she carried during those years. But alongside all of that, there's another layer to Julie's story. Her late ADHD diagnosis and how it reframed decades of coping and surviving. It helped understand why certain things were harder, why she pushed herself so fiercely, and why her son's struggle made sense in a way she had never been taught to recognize. Welcome to the show, Julie. [Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me, Julie.] Well, a great name if I say so myself. Yes, we've got lots to chat about today. But starting off, you were diagnosed with ADHD only two years ago, navigating your care-giving and bereavement, and emotional and financial abuse, all without this language to support what you needed. Looking back, how do you see ADHD showing up throughout those experiences, especially in ways that you may not have recognized at the time? 

JULIE B: I've always, you know, if somebody would ask me, I'd always say I was an over-thinker. You know, that I think that's my generation is, you know, we just overthink things. So, I think that really some... ways that really was a positive and in other ways it like you know, it just felt like it never stopped. You know, like there was never a moment. Life was moving quickly enough you know. Enough was going on but on top of that it was almost like I kept compiling my own you know, thoughts and ruminating and doing all of these things and you know, the inability to stay on task. It was like I would do something and then I was so I you know, I had all the but I thought that was just mothering. It was just me. It was just you know. So all the signs were there but again you know, my generation didn't you know, they just they called me a pleaser. They called me an over-thinker. They you know, it was anxiety. It was it was all of these things but it was never really what it was. So finding out I think was kind of like, "Oh, oh, okay, now it all makes sense" kind of moment. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And that overthinking, if you've done that all your life, that's just your norm, isn't it? And one almost would think that everybody does that, surely. Yeah. I can you know, I had a conversation with someone the other day and you know, when you ask somebody else what they think about it they're like "Well....". And you know, in me I'm like you mean you don't ruminate over it 20 times and think about all the possibilities and like you just think? You just assume that everyone else's brain is going like yours. 

JULIE L: You've also shared about realizing your son's ADHD only after understanding your own and that how you wish you could have validated his struggles differently. What has it been like to process that and how has this new awareness shaped your relationship with him today? 

JULIE B: You know, our house is so chaotic. And I think that... I have a daughter with special needs and she has something called primordial dwarfism. So in my head like you know, kids with special needs looked a certain way you know, I was in the special needs world. So you know, I always assumed if there was something like that, that one of my children had but I would notice, you know. And I think I also had this illusion that ADD was ADHD like they were one and the same. So in the back of my head I was thinking well you know, he tends to like not do a lot you know, he can sit still for days. And so when he came to me and said it, I was like, uh, I don't think so. But you know, the problem was that I had him in counselling and I will say that I knew the entire time from the minute he was born that him and I were cut from the same cloth, you know. And so I followed along with he's an over-thinker. He just cares too much. He, you know, and so I did I set him up for a lot of counselling appointments and, you know, thought it was just anxiety. And my dad had anxiety, too, which he's not around anymore, but I would love to have that conversation with him. So, I think that, you know, I didn't listen to him. I was always searching for something that was outside of what he really needed. So, there's a lot of fences that have been mended, not only in that realm. My ex-husband was extremely abusive, if anyone to him. And he was such a sensitive creature. So, I did a lot of what I was taught. Suck it up. You know, you're overthinking it. Just let it go. You know, let's work on you must be, you know, anxiety-ridden, you know. And so, yeah, there was that moment where I had to really say to him, I apologize. Like, I was... I misunderstood ADHD. I misunderstood the signs of it and he went to a private school. So private schools aren't like public schools, you know, to get him diagnosed, and he always had problems in school, you know. He was, I think he also has something called dysgraphia or some sort of it. So I was focused on that being the reason that he wasn't doing well in school and like well you know you just have to learn to navigate the world. So, you know, he didn't go off to college. Of course, you’re his mother. You always blame yourself like, well, if I had, you know, found this earlier, would he have loved school? Would he have liked school better? But the one thing in my life I've always kind of tried to, you know, acknowledge is that as parents and as people, we do the best that we can and we also, you know, take our own experiences. And so, you know, I think that hopefully we're stopping this generational thing here. And if he does choose to have children, that, you know, he'll understand that I already see it in him. You know, he is very self-aware. And even though I told him he didn't, I think he was like, "Whatever, I'm going with what I'm going with." And there was a point when he was, I think, a junior year when I finally said, "Okay, you know, if this is really what you think you have, then" and he did. He got on ADHD or ADD medication and lost a whole bunch of weight and did seem to be pointed in the right direction. And that really was when I was like, "Okay, I really I missed the ball on this." But he did end up going off of them again and kind of, you know, navigating the world that way that him and I are used to doing. So, that's kind of where we stand now. You know, he's one of my biggest loves. You know, if anyone is the first person to come to me and say, "Mom, how you feeling?" It's him. He feels all of my emotions and although I feel sad for him for having to, because I know what that's like, you know the richness of his world is double what other people feel. 

JULIE L: So Julie as an ADHD parent and having children diagnosed with something that neurotypicals would not have, or something outside of perceived norm. How was that for you? 

JULIE B: So my mother was, she still is, bless her, she's still around. My mother was very big on fit in, fit in, you know, don't stand out, don't. So I think I kind of followed in that path. And you know, I think there's this misconception that there's a line between, you know, children who don't have anything outside and children who do. And I don't believe that it's there. But I think sometimes as parents, we can overly try and protect our kids by trying to mold them to be what we want them to be so that other people won't judge them. I did that with both my daughter and my son that, you know, I really held off on either one of them being diagnosed. And the oddest thing is being my age now, you know, I didn't want for my daughter to be labeled with any kind of learning disabilities. I was fearful that my son would be, you know, labeled. And that's the way that I looked at it is that he would be somehow labeled as if that was a bad thing. But I think what I was really doing is almost telling them that having a label was a bad thing instead of seeing that it's not a bad thing. In fact, it allows people to get what they need. And I think it was my perception of wanting them to fit into this box that really hurt them the most. When I thought that I was protecting them from society, they really needed protection from my mode of thinking. So, as a parent, you know, I know it can be hard sometimes to want to protect your children from the world, judging them. I think sometimes the judging really is coming from within. And I found that in myself was that I was really the one that was doing all the judging, trying to protect them from other people judging them. So, you know, I think that there is that struggle sometimes as a parent that you just want to, like you just want them to have an easy road. You know, let's just have an easy road. And if something is diagnosed, if something is labeled, if you call it what it is, then you're forced to see what it is. But that's a good thing because then you can do something about it. So, you know, that's very near and dear to my heart because I did with both of them try to sugarcoat it and oh no, no, they don't have anything that you can label. But I think I ended up doing them a disservice and myself and for not accepting that you know, they were great and normal no matter what label they had or what weak... we all have weaknesses you know. Just because we don't label them all doesn't mean that we all have whatever it is out there, so. 

JULIE L: As parents we can give ourselves a very hard time. Retrospectively, we do what we need to do you know, with the best of love and intention but if there are gaps missing in our knowledge or if we ourselves are going through something often it's survival mode for us as well you know, to be the best parents to wake up in the morning and to care for our children. So yeah, we can be a bit unkind to ourselves when we look back. But it's lovely that you're now in this space where you understand each other and as you said, cut from the same cloth. So that's a beautiful thing that you know what each other is going through. Talking on the trauma side of things, Julie, through the Colin James Barth outreach, you support women in crisis to reclaim safety and resources and personal power. For someone who's listening who may be in a difficult or unsafe situation, whether it be emotionally, financially, or physically, what would you want them to know about taking those first steps towards support or freedom? 

JULIE B: Well, I think if anyone's out there listening, and they do feel the way that I did where I take everything very personally, I take everything... you know, I tend to again, be overthinking in me. And I think that can definitely keep you stuck in a situation as I was because it's almost like you overthink your own position in it and you tend to play both sides of the field so much that there's... you can't pick a side sometimes. And if somebody's out there, you know, it took me many years to pick me. And you know, I think that's the most important thing is it is overwhelming because for somebody who isn't overthinking the thought of, oh my gosh, not only if I leave the situation, I mean, raising six kids on my own, which I was anyway, I'm going to have to get a better job because I can't, you know, the spiral of all of the enormity of what you have to do overwhelmingly can keep you stuck. But you know what I finally I guess am still learning is to you know, take a bite of it. You know just take a little bit of it and anytime you can find you know, wake up every morning and say okay today you have your list but today I'm just going to do this one thing. And after you do that one thing just pat yourself on the back and let it go. You know I think we all have that tendency to be like well if I can do that I can do it in one day. And I think recognizing that it isn't going to happen and nothing happens in a day ever. But if you can just, you know, break it down into smaller pieces, the more you can feel accomplished, the more power you'll gain and the more you will look around and really say, you'll have to examine what you already think you know to be true. And I think that's the problem with these situations is your entire line of thinking gets so altered that you don't know which way is up and you start guessing yourself. You start guessing your own reality and what you know to be true. So and it really does come to a point where you have to choose yourself. Stop playing devil's advocate. You know, let the devil play devil's advocate and you just do you. You know, and I think that's one of the most important things. 

JULIE L: Wow. Very, very tricky situations. What does resilience look like when life keeps just throwing these unexpected challenges your way? 

JULIE B: You know, I used to think resilience was bouncing back, you know, like you hit something and you bounce back. I mean, the more I bounce back, the more I recognize that it's about more than just getting back to where you were. You know, when something happens, you're just like, "Oh, I just want to get back to where I was." I don't I think the key is that not getting back to where you were but you know being in a better spot than where you were because all of the things that you encounter in life you have two choices. You know you can put them in your past fight through them and not acknowledge them and just move on or you can take the lessons that you learn and really sit on them and you know let them be a learning tool for you to be in a better headspace. You know, every time I bounced back, it was like I didn't recognize it probably until I did go through my divorce. And, you know, I recognize that I am I'm not where I used to be, but I'm on like solid ground now, you know. And it takes a while for you to look around and say like, I didn't bounce back. I bounced forward. And I'm no longer in a space where I'm trying to get to a better place. I'm in a better place. And I will never be in that situation again because I know better. I know deserve better. And I think that's part of resilience is knowing your worth and being a better version of yourself rather than trying to get back to whoever you think you lost in it. 

JULIE L: Wow. Lovely words. Thank you. Many women will feel ashamed and or hesitant to leave unhealthy relationships. In your experience, how can we change that conversation around? How can we reframe that? 

JULIE B: I think anytime that you would get into a situation such as mine, I know that the reason I stayed is because there was a big shame, guilt and shame. First of all, you know, you have to if you expose somebody else's behavior, especially in a relationship, because relationships don't happen in a bubble, you know. And although abusers are abusers, they also somehow make you culpable because the things you do sit with you. And so although, you know, I knew realistically that he was pushing my buttons, I had to take responsibility for the way that I reacted to it. And coming forward, I thought no one's going to believe me. And that really kept me stuck. I also thought, not only would no one believe me, but people are going to think I was a bad mom. People are what are people going to think, right? Especially again for someone who is, you know, cares very greatly. What I can hope that to tell people what helped me the most is that it doesn't matter what other people think because no one else has to live in your shoes but you. And there was this part of me that thought like what, like what if people think I'm to blame? What if I find out I'm to blame? What if I am the crazy one, you know? But on the other side of it doesn't matter who is to blame, it really doesn't. Like if you've done everything that you can and you have done the best job that you know, and it's not working, all of those issues what are people going to think or you know what's going to happen after this, they don't matter. What matters is that you only have one life to live and so you know, to talk about shame or guilt or you know. I will say that you know, as much as I was afraid of those things like I don't think people really even cared what I was doing you know. You just have this impression that people care so much about you or what you're doing. People really don't give that much thought to it, but you do. So again, it's about choosing you, you know, having the confidence to say, you know, whatever I lose, I didn't have to begin with because if it was that fragile that you were going to lose about trying to save yourself, then those are things that you don't need because they're not good for you anyway. 

JULIE L: Yes. And potentially there's a lot of manipulation going on in a relationship, too. But I love the idea of your response, your response to take ownership of that too because that is something we can have a say in if we were to flip things on its head. And while it may be very confusing and overwhelming at the time, that is something that we can change or address. So thank you for sharing. Now, some of these challenges when it comes to leaving an unhealthy relationship would remain the same across the board for anyone in that situation. However, now that you understand your ADHD, what additional challenges do you think adults with ADHD face when they're trying to leave this unhealthy partnership? 

JULIE B: I really think a lot of it is in the overthinking of something and becoming very overwhelmed by something. You know, what seems totally doable to other people, I can get lost in the thick of it very, very quickly. So I think, you know, focusing becomes even harder when someone's messing with your head, when you're already having a hard time focusing. So I think that the additional hurdles really are again like I said, you know, if somebody continues to tell you, you are not who you are, what you think you are, I think, you know, people without ADHD might have a harder time accepting somebody always presenting you with the other side of it because they're very steadfast and, you know, almost black and white and of knowing what they know and sticking to what they know where I think for me anyway, I'm very open to bouncing to other things and, you know, thinking about all sides of something where I think that that gives you an additional hurdle because you're... I remember trying to always like see it from another side, see it from another angle instead of seeing what was right in front of me. So, I do think that that ability to, you know, see things in many, many different facets that we all have is great. But when it comes to something like this, not being able to focus on the reality of what's in front of you and just deal with that head on, I think was very difficult for me. 

JULIE L: Now, you've written a memoir, Notes from a Blackberry, and it captures so much, including love and loss and resilience and the realities of being a special needs parent while caring for her husband through cancer. Alongside this, you're continuing your work with the Colin James Barth outreach. So, tell me about that and what's keeping you busy and excited right now. 

JULIE B: Well, I actually have one young woman you know, we're still in our infancy, so a lot of it is logistics with the charity right now, which I don't love. I do not love research. I don't love building databases. That's not my thing. But what I do, what I have been able to do is speak with a lot of women who you know, are having a hard time with the road map to get where they need to be and will stay stuck in that in that sort of you know inability. You're so overwhelmed that you don't even know what to do. So it when they come to me my favorite part is being able to say okay let's sit down make a list you know. Like do this, this, this and this because when you can turn something into... I think we become so paralyzed that we don't act. So when I can watch their you know, brains kind of like turn into action and oh okay you know and every time like I said every time they accomplish something feeling better and better about it, you know. Again I have a woman who's staying with me right now. And I just, it's a long story, but you know, I was running late for this appointment because I was helping her with another appointment. And you know, just I remember feeling very alone, you know, like I didn't think anyone was going to understand or it is shameful or I didn't want to tell people the truth. And the amount of women that have come out of the woodwork to, you know, not only ask for my help, but more to commend me and to say I was there. You know, people that I know that I had no idea that they had gone through this. You know, it gives me so much pleasure to know that I'm being a voice for people who, you know, probably will never come out and say it, but just to know that I validated their experience. You know, when we talk about validating my son's experience, when somebody, you know, when somebody tells me their story, because the way that they say it to me every time when I deal with a woman is they will say like, "Well, I mean, he never really like never physically hurt me, but..." and it's always that but. And then the things that come after that are just so shocking to me that I think you know, that you accept those things because you think they didn't physically harm you. So therefore it was okay, you know, and you were either too sensitive or it was out of place or you misunderstood it or you took it too seriously. So I think opening their eyes to it and reminding them of who they are and what they deserve is so gratifying for me. It's like being able to heal the part of me that wishes I had the confidence to tell someone or, you know, to be honest with people around me at the time. I am now. But, you know, just giving so that they're not stuck in it for a decade because that's a very long time to hide. You feel like you have secrets and yeah. 

JULIE L: So your work with women, is it while they're currently in an abusive relationship, looking for an action plan to exit or is it once they're through the other side looking for support and direction, or a bit of both? 

JULIE B: Yeah, I would say that my work personally is I think both, you know, I think that I'm on the other side of it now. So sometimes it gets hard for me to be on the inside of it because when you're on the outside, you're like, "Oh, this is great over here. You should come." So sometimes it's hard for me to put myself back in the shoes of being inside of it and not seeing that positivity, you know? But I do try and work on both fronts. A lot of my social media things I target personally because I want to speak to that person that's scrolling because they're out there right now. I can't tell you how many times I Googled like 'save my relationship', 'is he a narcissist' blah blah you know, over and over and over again. And you know, I'm trying to capture some of those people out there that I will never meet but hopefully one of my posts or something that I share will bring something in them to give them the courage to say okay you know, it's time to go. On the other end you know, I remember how hard it is being in the position of being in the thick of it. And you know, you shut people out because you're just like, I don't... I can't even talk about this. So, it's nice to be that voice for people that are going through it as well. So, I would say on pretty much all my charity was set up so that it's like a concierge service. Like, we don't do any one thing. We don't just deal with people who are getting out of emotionally abusive relationships. We don't just deal with people who are caregivers. Like, we want women to come to us. We say crisis, but really it's women who are struggling, who feel like they have no other resources out there. You know, because usually then you hit poverty before anyone will step in. So, we tackle the many situations that women can find themselves in without any resources. So it, you know, to say one thing or another, whether I'm in or I'm out, I really am just trying to heal an entire human being who, you know, feels like they don't have any support in what they're doing, whatever that looks like. So it is a varied. It's a very unique charity and that's the thing about it is we don't have any specific eligibility requirements. You need to be, you need to be. What we want you to do is come to us so that we can take apart your situation and say, "All right, this is how we can help you." And so I work all ends of everything on every situation. But my focus is really on women because that's my experience. And I think we kind of get a rotten deal sometime. So I'm hoping to kind of change some of those systematic ways as well. 

JULIE L: And for anyone listening, links to Julie's charity and Instagram and the other social media will be in the show notes so they can find you. Julie, with everything you've lived through and everything you now understand about your ADHD, what's a strategy or a mindset that genuinely helps you stay emotionally steady today? 

JULIE B: You know, I think that I used to spiral really, really quickly. If something would happen, it would be like, "Oh my gosh, this day is going to be terrible." And then I would be like, "And yesterday," and pile everything on. I think my best strategy is just to like when something happens, I step back for a minute and I just really breathe and just be like, "Okay, you've been through this." You know, whatever it is, you can go through this. Don't over-react because it's going to make it worse. Take it apart. Figure out what you can control and what you can't control. And whatever you can't control, let it go. Because if you're constantly trying to stay on top of everything, you can't. Focus on what you actually can control. So, you know, I think that being feeling as if you are out of control is what really helps you to spiral. But if you can find that one little niche in it, which is what I do. I'll look at an entire situation and I'll say, "Okay, well, I can't cure this part of it. I can't do anything about, but this part right here is where I can make a change." And from that, it's almost like it heals all the way around. If you can just take that one part that you can control, you finally see like, okay, well, I've done my part in this and it's going to happen the way it's going to happen, but I've done everything I can instead of just trying to tackle it from all sides all the time, bouncing back because you can't control everything. And if you think you can, that's where you get into trouble. Look at what you can and can't control. 

JULIE L: Thank you, Julie. Yeah. And for women who are quietly carrying grief or just an invisible weight of an abusive relationship, what message would you most want to leave them with? 

JULIE B: Don't stop reaching out to people. You know, when you're going through grief or, you know, when you're in an abusive situation, people don't like to be in uncomfortable situations. You know, like I felt like a lot of people when they watched Colin, when I when Colin was dying, it was uncomfortable for them to be around. So, I learned very or I think I learned very early on, just don't talk about it. People don't want to know. They're going to shut you out and then, you know, no one wants to hear your misery. And, you know, the problem with that is if you shut everybody out and you think, "Nobody wants to hear me," and you stop talking, you just become so it's like you're on an island all alone. So, and I think that a lot of people had I taken the time to just sit down and say, "Listen, I'm really struggling with this and I know it's uncomfortable for you and if it's too much, I understand." But to at least give them the space to respond and to say, "Oh, no, no. I want to hear what you have to say." Instead of assuming they don't, was one of the biggest things for me is that I just assumed nobody wanted to hear what I had to say or that I was bothering people. I don't. If they are truly your friends, truly your loved ones, people that you would value in your life, you're not bothering them because that's what a friendship is about. That's what a community, you know, a relationship is about. And I think had I like known that down the line those same people would come back and need me, then it wouldn't have felt like such a burden. But again to people out there that you know feel like you're burdening or you don't want to put your weight on someone else. I mean that's what friendships are for. You know that's what love ship is. You know love is about. And I just don't, if you get to somebody who does feel burdened by it that's okay because you're... not everyone is going to stick in the long haul. But what you will learn at the end of it is who you can really trust. And you will I have you know, that old saying you can have a hundred friends but you only... I will tell you that right now in my life I have I know where I stand with people. I know who I can depend on and I'm past the, you know, having superficial friendships or acquaintances that I think are friendships and I've really tested them. And I think that it's okay to test those people and to figure out who's worth your energy and who isn't instead of just throwing your energy wherever, you know, out for free because it is a commodity. Your energy, your love is a commodity. So lean on people because eventually they'll, you know, need to lean on you and that's how you, again, that's how you find out who's really worth your value. 

JULIE L: I think along with that, being authentic and at times vulnerable out loud to others is almost therapeutic not only to yourself but to others because there's a lot of secrets. There's a lot of experiences that everyone else has gone through and hasn't cared to share or haven't felt that the strength to share it with others because for exactly the same reasons, maybe shame or concerned about what other people think. So by being open you invite openness back into your life as well. And I think that open conversation leads to greater strength, a better understanding between friends or family members. And I think it's a wonderful thing if someone's brave enough to do it first, you know. I think it's wonderful. 

JULIE B: Well, I would think yeah, I think that once you start, it's almost like you can't stop, you know. Like I will say that, you know, when I was going through my divorce and really I was being called all kinds of names and being lied about and, you know, I think that when I finally had to defend myself and put all the things that I didn't want people to know about me out there, it was like freedom, you know. Like I was no longer carrying these heavy secrets. I was no longer so concerned that someone was going to find out about the true me or know what I did or whatever it was that I was so worried about. And when you're standing kind of naked in front of everyone with all your all of your, hey, you either like me or you don't, it your entire world changes. It really does. 

JULIE L: Wonderful. Julie, you've been a wonderful guest to have on the show. And again, those links are going to head people into some very interesting places where they can find you and they can feel your support and your generosity of energy and love back at them. So, thank you so much for being on the show today. I've really appreciated that. 

JULIE B: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.