ADHDifference

S2E13: Neurodiversity In Education Project + guest Justine Munro

• Julie Legg • Season 2 • Episode 13

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Julie Legg is joined by Justine Munro, CEO of the Neurodiversity In Education Project in New Zealand. Justine brings passion, strategic insight, and a deep commitment to reimagining inclusive education. She shares her late ADHD diagnosis journey, the challenges facing neurodivergent learners, and the powerful programs being rolled out across New Zealand to ensure that every student, regardless of how their brain works, feels seen, supported, and celebrated. 

From practical strategies and resources for educators to mindset shifts around self-understanding and kindness, this episode is packed with empowering ideas for anyone raising, teaching, or working alongside neurodivergent young people. 

Key Points from the Episode: 

  • Justine’s late diagnosis and how it reshaped her understanding of herself and her family 
  • The mission of the Neurodiversity In Education Project and why it matters now more than ever 
  • Why traditional education systems fail to support neurodivergent learners and what needs to change 
  • The importance of celebrating brain differences rather than treating them as deficits 
  • How programs like Mind Plus and Clubs help neurodivergent learners thrive socially, emotionally, and intellectually 
  • Why empowering teachers (not overburdening them) is key to systemic change 
  • Justine’s personal strategies: curiosity, collaboration, self-compassion, and the game-changing power of neuroplasticity

Links:

LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justine-munro/  

LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/neurodiversity-in-education-project/ 

WEBSITE: https://www.neurodiversity.org.nz/ 

FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/neurodiversity.org.nz 

INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/neurodiversitynz/

FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/yncnz/ 

INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/youngneurodiversitychampions/ 

TIKTOK: https://www.tiktok.com/@youngndchampions 


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Thanks for listening.

JULIE: Welcome to Season 2 of ADHDifference. I'm your host, Julie Legg, ADHD advocate, author of The Missing Piece: A Woman's Guide to Understanding, Diagnosing, and Living with ADHD, and an unapologetic doer of many things. This season, we're turning up the volume with a global lineup of brilliant guests bringing their lived experiences, insights, research, strategies, and resources. And of course, along with a healthy dose of humour and humility. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or just curious, there's something here for every curious brain. Let's dive in. Today, I'm joined by Justine Munro, CEO of the Neurodiversity In Education Project, leading change towards a more neuro-inclusive education system here in New Zealand. Justine is a strategic thinker and a sleeves rolled up leader who spent her career designing and delivering high social impact projects across New Zealand and beyond. Late diagnosed with ADHD herself and mother to neurodivergent children, through the neurodiversity and education project. She and her team are providing programs, resources, and support to neurodivergent young people, their whanau, and their schools. All with the goal of reimagining what true inclusion can look like. Welcome to the show, Justine. [Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here, Julie.] It's an honour to have you on board. You've led so many high impact initiatives across education and business and social change, but behind all of that there's your own personal story. So, could you please share with us your ADHD journey? 

JUSTINE: Fantastic. Wonderful to have the chance and I probably haven't talked about this so much before, so good to think about it. But look, I was only diagnosed 3 years ago, so it's been, you know, a relatively recent period for me of exploring and really leaning into understanding my unique brain. And I must say I love the Ritalin. So that's been wonderful. But I do come from a neurodivergent family. So we worked out that my two of my children have ADHD. One's gifted as well. One has a lot of learning difficulties as well as being highly creative and very emotionally and socially intelligent. So you know, some unique brains with my children. But I guess since being on the journey and more particularly being in this role, I think we've unlocked neurodiversity across my whole very neuro-spicy extended family. And kind of every family gathering now is like "Oh my god, I do that too," or "Is that weird? I thought everyone did that?" So we're kind of like yeah, a very distinctive family which I'm very proud of. But I when I look back through my life as you do, I think when you're diagnosed you kind of like look back and think "Gosh where did that... where was that all weaving through?" But the strengths that came from my neurodiversity were actually what enabled me to drive the career I have. So, it's always been my energy and my passion and my kind of focus and impulsiveness and that like I don't like waiting for things, I just go and make them happen, you know. All of that has let me have the wonderful exciting career working with amazing people, doing very cool things that I have. So, I'm very grateful for my ADHD strengths. But alongside that, I've always been someone with big emotions. I'm a you know, I'm an intense person, and I'm always on. And you know, and over the years also I've faced a lot of criticism of things like being late, and losing things, and having a messy desk or things like that that were really seen by parents and teachers and partners and kids as sort of personal failings. And I guess I internalised a lot of criticism about my inability to do, to focus on detail, to care about detail, and in the ways that other people just seem to find really easy. So and I think probably those challenges, like for many other women, got really tough when I was managing three children under four. Two of whom were neurodivergent and had some really significant issues in other ways too and trying to work, and be a social entrepreneur, and everything. So, you know, there were some... there were some tough times as I was managing all of that. And it's been really wonderful to get that diagnosis to understand myself, to understand my children, my peers so much better. Understanding why. And now being able to kind of take that knowledge and understanding and appreciation of difference into my role with the Neurodiversity In Education Project. 

JULIE: Wow. Were you diagnosed after your children or before? 

JUSTINE: Oh, way after. I'm the classic story. Yeah, it's, I'm the classic story of, "Oh, but you've achieved a lot or you're doing well. You couldn't possibly," you know. I remember when my daughter was first diagnosed, everyone was like, "Well, where did that come from?" I'm like, I think it's my sister. It's not me. I understand. It has taken me many years to go, actually, it is me. And that's cool.

JULIE:  It is so wonderful, Justine, also to hear about your strengths and how they through your undiagnosed life had carried you through to amazing places and spaces and experiences. And that is very true. And I think sometimes it's quite confusing for us undiagnosed because we don't know what the heck is going on. We're so strong in so much of our lives yet our failings, as we call them, can really undermine that confidence in a strange way. So how wonderful to be diagnosed and you know make sense of it all. You mentioned, and I'd love to know more about the Neurodiversity In Education Project. It's got such an inspiring mission sort of expanding from the New Zealand Centre for Gifted Education and now and supporting all of the neurodiverse learners. Tell me all about it. How did it all begin? 

JUSTINE: Well, yeah, it is an inspiring mission and it's just an incredible you know, group to be working with. And yeah, we are you know, out there trying to ensure that every student, every day, in every classroom around the country is getting the support they need to make the absolute most of their unique brain. And so it's that recognition that all children, all learners, all of us have a brain that is different, that they are unique in the way in the really fundamental ways of how we experience the world, how we feel, how we communicate. And that our time and education needs to respond to those differences in a way that lets every individual brain unlock its potential, learn in a way that works for it. Now, that is new, you know, that is that really nuanced understanding of learner variability is a big change for education systems. Education systems might have thought that there's sort of you know a bell curve with people at either ends and that there was a bit of you know accelerating the ones behind and you know, trying to give a bit of extension to the ones ahead. That was the sort of predominant model, but everyone else just learned and this is the way they learn and they learn in the same way and you know maybe they're a bit dumber or a bit smarter or whatever, but kind of the sausage factory. And I think you know, the massive breakthroughs in in neuroscience that have really helped us understand this major variability in the way brains both... you turn up in a baby, you know, depending on genetic differences, but then evolve differently depending on different stimuli and different experiences really mean that education is doing something really different, needs to do something really different. But teachers haven't been trained to do that. Initial teacher education still doesn't understand that, isn't set up to do that. And as a result we have a whole you know, people estimate and we don't have good data particularly in New Zealand but also in the rest of the world it could be as many as one in five learners have are so different in that in the way their brains work that they are called neurodivergent. So while everyone is different which neurodiversity some you know perhaps even one in five have such significant differences that we... they could be diagnosed with a neurodivergent condition. So you know, one in five kids are sitting in classrooms with teachers who were never trained and never understood that degree of learner variability. So our organization is really meeting that need and we do so not by focusing on individual diagnosis, not by trying to segment everyone up and saying, "Well, you're dyslexic, you're autistic, you're ADHD, and now teacher, I'm going to send you on a course for, you know, all those different things and give you an individual program for every child. And now you have to do that for 30 kids in your class and it's all fine." Clearly, it's not going to work practically for teachers. It also doesn't work because most kids will never get a diagnosis. We don't have the workforce and the funding to make that happen realistically. And it also doesn't make sense because so many neurodivergent people have multiple diagnosis or multiple things that makes their brain special. And as well as that, even if they, you know, you've got two people with an ADHD diagnosis, the way in which that ADHD expresses itself can vary dramatically. So there really is no... it doesn't make sense to silo within neurodiversity. And so all of our work is predicated on a basis is that we are looking at broad neurodivergent learner characteristics, empowering teachers to notice, recognize and respond to those characteristics in really simple ways, things that they can do tomorrow. And that we are building inclusive schools and environments where all brains can flourish, all brains are celebrated. So that's the kind of big picture on what the Neurodiversity In Education Project's all about. That is amazing and huge. Huge project if they've got the right data for the job I would say. What are some of the biggest challenges that you see neurodivergent young people facing right now and what changes are most needed to support them thrive? I think you know, one of the sort of underlying massive challenge is that recognition that brains are different and that is actually wonderful and something to be celebrated and enjoyed. And that not being the same as other people is not some is not a failing, something to be ashamed of but something that you deserve. Support that you deserve, support to learn and achieve in a way that works for your brain. And unfortunately that's not a message that many schools yet give. And I think that is a massive issue because feeling like you're broken not understanding sitting at the back of the class masking your differences, feeling angry, excluded. All of those things means people can't learn. They you know, end up not being able to go to school. They end up having some horrible mental health you know, situations. And it can really, really stuff up people's lives in a in a huge way. So what you know, that I think so much stems from that you know, so many negative consequences happen when people don't understand why they do things differently. And that's not them being deliberately bad or you know, or a personal you know moral failing. It's just the way their wonderful brain works. So I think the absolute key is awareness of teachers, of doctors, of parents, of other professionals understanding different brains. And in taking and I think fundamentally it's a human relationship thing you know. Yes it's money. Yes it's teacher aid time. Yes it's specialist professionals and things but fundamentally it's about being curious about how another person is seeing the world, how their brain is operating and getting alongside them to help to support them to achieve what they want in a way that works for them. And it's fundamentally our Young Neurodiversity Champions, young people that we work with just make this so clear that it's how the teacher treats them that that makes or breaks their school experience. If a teacher is curious about them, cares about them, shows the class that they care about them, that kid will have a good time. But if the teacher is annoyed by them, thinks they're stupid, is frustrated by them, the whole class picks up on that and their time at school will be pretty awful. So, it's fundamentally, I think, a relationship and understanding and inclusion question. 

JULIE: Wow. And also at, you know, school age, whether it's primary through to secondary, it's that age where there's enough going on in our bodies. Yeah. And you know emotional and physical changes let alone trying to get our heads around a neurodiversity of our own, accepting that. And so I think that conversation it's really opening it up and yeah I love that that it's not a discussion to have behind closed doors but everyone can learn through awareness and embrace that. 

JUSTINE: Yeah, and I think that whole point about, you know, a child's behavior is telling you something. As a parent, as a teacher, what is this behavior trying to signal? It might just look like horrible disobedience, you know, but no child wants people to be angry at them or to disappoint people. They want to be enjoyed and respected, but their behavior is telling you that they're not coping in some way or things something isn't working for them. And so I think it's the start of a conversation. It's the start of a questioning process. And as you said, you know, there is a lot going on when you are a young person, particularly once you become aware, and girls do this, you know, faster than boys do. Once you become aware of others and how they see you and the kind of social world you're operating in, just understanding the enormous drain on a person's brain when they are neurodivergent of trying to act normal, trying to do the things that other people do. It takes an enormous amount of mental activity to do that. And so I know that with my daughter, with myself in different situations, and being really understanding of the fact that the neurodivergent kid is probably working twice or three times as hard just to survive at school or in a social context and being respectful and understanding of that. 

JULIE: This energy, it's a little bit like an ADHD battery. When fully charged it has amazing energy but drained, it does need to recharge and that can take different forms too. We don't know when our batteries are going to drain completely and it might be right in the middle of a lesson. So we can't necessarily moderate that. Particularly a young person that's still trying to fit so much into their day and the classroom. I was going to ask you about, through your project, what programs and resources and support are available for the young people and their whanau and teachers in the schools? Are you able to share what's available? 

JUSTINE: Yeah. So fundamentally our approach really is about empowering other people to do this work. We can have a limited range just as you know, a small team but our focus is on training and providing the programs so that teachers and schools can do this for themselves. Because there's you know, nothing will really change if you're a drop-in program for you know a few months or a day a week for a bit or you know whatever. It actually has to be every classroom, every day, every interaction that is neuro-affirming. That is what it needs. So yes, so we're about empowering the actors in the system. And we do work directly with young people also in sort of our original sort of signature programs. So, a big part of what we're doing in our programs with young people, so they're mainly called the Mind Plus programs, and traditionally they were sort of like one day schools but they have... that has really evolved since that was when we were the New Zealand Centre for Gifted Education. But since around 2 or 3 years ago, we actually took that program and created a variant called Mine Plus Your School, which any school can run for itself, which is so much better you know. And we get so much more scale. And that can be primary, intermediate and secondary school as well. And the program does something which is really important for neurodivergent learners and we were talking about what people, young people need. They need to be with like minds. They need to be with a group of people that understand them, that get them, that they can see themselves with. That they can kind of let down the barriers and just enjoy these quirky, cool, interesting brains around them. That makes a massive difference to have a little bit of time where there are people like me. And you know, that's often what is happening when kids do a lot better. If they can survive school and get through to tertiary, they're finding the people like them. They find their tribe. Or in a secondary school, they're all the kids that are in the art teachers room or in the back of the theatre or, you know, that, you know, in the library or in a computer lab, you know. They're finding a tribe. And they're often neurodivergent kids that are that are working really hard to do that. So we bring those kids together and then we provide a program that that really helps and enables and gives them what their brains are craving. Like these curious neurodivergent kids they need... their brains need something to grip on to, to really pick apart to the conceptual thinking, the big picture thinking, the deep thinking. That often just doesn't happen in standard schools. But these kids, they kind of go crazy. I mean, I'm like this. If I'm so bored, if you know, I can get really bored if my brain's not, you know, into something. So, we give them those conceptual thinking skills. They have those big philosophical discussions. They come at it in different ways. That's the conceptual thinking part. We also... we focus on strengths and we call it talent development but it's basically strength-based approaches is really important for neurodivergent kids. Many neurodivergent kids are really into something, you know, they hyperfocus. They're into like, you know, dinosaurs or World War II or, you know, Chinese history or, you know, and they want that time to really dig into that and be sort of helped to expand those interests, to learn through those interests. And that's part of what we do is encourage teachers to use that strength. And those that really strong drive to explore the curriculum and everything. So we have the talent development part and we have a program called Clubs that is free for everyone. It can be run through school. It can be run just at home where kids come together. We've got 10 different club areas at a senior and a junior level. Things like, you know, readers and writers, historians, scientists, coders, and it basically is just endless amounts of, you know, tasters and projects and a stream where those kids are talking to each other and collaborating on stuff. We have activation weeks every term where we have older clubs type kids and experts talking about their passion areas. That's all part of the talent stuff and it's just food for those brains. And the third and the really important part is actually that social and emotional learning. The skills that you know sometimes neurodivergent kids just don't have or are have developing less fast in areas like executive functioning, social skills, emotional skills. They need to be taught. They don't, they aren't just picked up. They need to be taught and practiced in a safe environment. And the other part of that is understanding themselves as neurodivergent. What does it mean to be neurodivergent?  How do I enjoy that part of myself? How do I advocate for what I need in ways that aren't threatening to neurotypical people? How... what can I expect? So there's those three dimensions are really critical and our Mind Plus program works with all of them. So schools can do it with a group that they bring together half a day a week. They can do it in you know three or four periods a week. It's very flexible. That's one big program. So that and clubs and then also we have Building a Neuro-inclusive School and that is on our website. It's... the program operates totally online. It's about... it's resourcing schools and teachers with you know, free fun and simple resources. That's kind of the mantra that help them be more neuro-inclusive you know. And things like tool kits around you know, how to spot neurodivergent divergent kids, how to notice recognize and respond, how to create a sensory friendly classroom, how to support neurodivergent teachers. And there's resources and opportunities to come together online for what we call cafes and webinars. As, and we are out a lot working with RTLB clusters with groups of schools with kids as part of that program. 

JULIE: That sounds amazing. Tell me, the clubs. Is that an online forumy type of thing? So you don't physically have to attend? [No.] That's brilliant. 

JUSTINE: It's to enable really you know, the kid who's out in you know Taumaranui who can't find anyone else that's equally fascinated about you know, solar panels to find others you know, and to get extended. It's for the teachers who really know that they want to do more for a kid who's got these passions and deep interests but haven't got time. They can put them on Clubs and all of those resources are there for them. So, yeah, it's a wonderful program. 

JULIE: That's really great news because I think accessibility, if you can physically be there and your school is really on board and have these amazing groups, fabulous. But if not, Clubs sounds the way to go. Accessible right across the country. Beautiful. Yeah. Yay. Thank you so much for explaining that. That sounds.... 

JUSTINE: Also Mind Plus which is our program which has those three components. If your school can't offer it, you can't get to one of our units, you can also do it online. And kids do that from their schools or they do it at home before or after school and they just love it. They absolutely love it. Yeah. 

JULIE: An amazing project. As someone juggling with your leadership and your advocate work and your family life all with ADHD, I'd love to hear about a personal strategy or a daily practice that you use that others might find helpful. 

JUSTINE: I think, you know, probably what I've, what I emphasized about is being curious, you know, about myself, about other people. You know, whenever I kind of experience an emotion now, and God Ritalin really helps with this, but as an ADHD person it lets me have that pause to go "Okay I'm feeling an emotion. What's that about?" you know and kind of pause and reflect and be curious about what is driving that and to start to say "Well that how it happens before when I'm really tired or when I haven't eaten anything for a while and forgot about it." Or you know, so just being curious and using all of the parts of my brain. The rational, you know, the ability to think something through as well as the ability to feel empathy and things, and understanding. So, build that curiosity and understanding and that constant learning. And I don't know whether that comes from my ADHD or what, but I'm just so driven to constantly learn about myself and other people. So, that's being curious. I think also that really collaborating sense, and I think I probably brought that out too, particularly with my kids or with the Young Neurodiversity Champions that we work with, is they know that I'm walking alongside them and that I'm trying to understand. And that we can... we constantly with my girls, we're constantly saying, "This is how my brain's feeling." We have this amazing game that we developed. It's called Welcome to My Brain and it's available online and it's kind of life-changing because it helps everyone share with other people how their brain is. What's their brain feeling, how it works. And what you see when you play it, and you can play with anyone, you can play it with your kids, you can play it in classrooms, you can play it with clients, is you get a sense that... Oh, like for example, my brain is like got this image of like lightning sparks and wires going everywhere. And it's like that's actually how my brain is. And every other people look at me and go, "Oh my gosh, you know, how do you do that?" Or "That sounds awful" And I'm like, "I love it. It's fun. I'd be really bored by your brain, which is all these cars lined up in the right spaces," you know. So I think yeah, just collaborating, seeking to understand someone and you know, talking with them about what their brain's doing, why it's feeling like it is, and helping them. I guess also kindness, you know, like and that doesn't just apply to other people, that applies to us. And I think for many neurodivergent people, that self-compassion idea and self-compassion practices have been really, really helpful. Like, you know, saying to myself, "Of course, you're feeling overwhelmed right now and a bit teary. There is a lot on your plate and, you know, most people would find this challenging." You know, that self-compassion really helps. And actually one of the biggest and coolest things I think is knowing I can rewire my own brain. That that whole concept of neuroplasticity and knowing that my brain may have been wired by my experiences in the past to react a certain way to certain stimuli. It's not something that I have to accept and just live with, that I can rewire it to do something different. I can not panic. I can think pause and think I've been through this before. I can feel calm and I can just get after that you know, rather than like I haven't done it. What's going to happen? You know, so yeah, that degree of control that comes from understanding and knowing about neuroplasticity. 

JULIE: Wow. One thing on your game, where can people support the project and also buy a copy of that game? 

JUSTINE: Yes. Everything I've talked about today is on our website. It's neurodiversity.org.nz. And I really encourage those of you who have the brilliant brains that like to go down rabbit holes to have fun exploring because there's so much great stuff. And, you know, we've worked really hard to make it very accessible and very simple and with loads of examples and personal stories, video, little quick resources, and, I know people really enjoy it, so I hope you do, too. 

JULIE: Yeah, sounds amazing. Thank you. Finally, I'd like to ask, for parents, educators or students who are just starting to understand their neurodiversity, what would you most want them to hear?

JUSTINE: I'd like them to be positive, you know. It's not a doom and gloom thing. It's actually an exciting wonderful thing to have humans whose brains are different and it adds so much to our lives to have people who have strengths in different ways. And yeah, the world is not set up that well for people whose brains are quite different from other people but that's something we can support and change. There's so much we can do in our families, in our classrooms, in our workplaces to just be curious about how all those brains are working and be reflecting and talking to people because people know the answers. You know, people know what they need. You know, they'll be "I don't like stress. I my brain freezes. Can we do this another way?" And it's like when people are supported and understood and feel seen then they just flourish. And you know, having children who are flourishing having been through hell is wonderful. So, I just want to give people kind of hope and that positive sense that it's wonderful to be different. Find people like you, support each other, and you know, there's no going back. 

JULIE: It's marvellous. Thank you so much. I've really appreciated your time today. Thank you for coming on the show. 

JUSTINE: Lovely to talk to you. Thank you.

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Julie Legg

Host
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Jel Legg

Co-host
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Justine Munro

Guest